7. Going back to the first question and also referring to a theme that seems to be running through this interview. You've talked about people and organisations that have been involved with and then moved on from. Satanism is supposed to be about an individual practitioners journey through life where they strive to excel to be the best/strongest they can be on which ever path they are on. Does this not then contradict the existence of Satanic groups and organisations which are in fact a collective group? Why/why not?
Good question, and one that will have an interesting response.
Organisations are, in essence, just a tool and platform to work with, and to re-slot an old coin, a means to an end. At some stage along the way, there needs to be some type of cohesion with certain aims and activities to make their enactment useful and as widespread as possible, with the greatest impact, and this includes both Magickal and practical aims; Gestalt. This goes hand in hand with some of the activities required at an early stage as well, i.e. forming and leading a temple – which ultimately, most of the time at least, becomes part of leading those that need to be lead, whether the people involved are aware of this or not. This means as well that you are able to have a larger impact with activities and practical actions, rituals and so forth, regardless that the outcome is often purely personal. They are, in the end however, a means as above and elsewhere, and once their usefulness has served its purpose, they are moved on from and discarded; their usefulness, what has been achieved by both their successes and failures, is assimilated, learnt and grown from. An Order does, obviously, continue on after this, as it should, and again stemming from the same idea of Gestalt once more.
Orders are useful for the point that they demand participation and dedication, the meeting of “minimum standards” etc, in addition to the fact that they can also provide access to things which are a valuable resource and enable the discussion and fleshing out of ideas. Additionally, they also provide the ability to contribute to and augment certain traditions and ideas, to ensure they remain organic and dynamic and are genuinely HERETICAL – i.e. ossified ideas and forms are destroyed, out-dated means are discarded, synthesis is possible, contagion is progressively active and fluid, and indeed Machiavellian, as is the Realpolitik, as is the Sinister Dialectic, and Satanism itself… Hence the nature, and relevance, for example of, “The Mass of Heresy” as a genuine Black Mass.
Of course, there are some that will never participate in an Order of group, who will never contribute to anything greater than themselves, or recognise the transcendent. The individual is an illusion, and realistically speaking, there are few that are genuine individuals irrespective, which is a difficult and harsh reality to acknowledge – one must BECOME an individual in every definition of the term. One can make excuses about why an Order is not necessary, but this often also involves making excuses about everything else as well – i.e. it’s great to theorise that you can run a marathon in less than 4hours, just as much as you can theorise that blood stained hands are easy to live with, but both require a certain nature to be attained and actualised, to endure the accompanying ordeals and trials, and to achieve a practical and tangible outcome. “Self-overcoming” is a not a work of theory. A mirrored statement can be made in respect to those that make assertions in relation to being “elite” – which is a definition and reflection which by, again its very nature, is something which should defined by someone who is worthy of rendering the title by their own virtue. The members of a particular “elite military squad” with whom I have met do not define themselves as being elite for example, but it is those around them, who by seeing their abilities and their possibilities, render this title and honour to them.
In saying the above however, Orders can sometimes provide guidance for those that need to be guided, albeit that this is often a process of planting and cultivating seeds. Those Orders, groups, fraternities that offer guidance, insulation, and assurance via dogma however, are largely irrelevant and purposeless, when often they are nothing more than a cult of personality (i.e. Church of Satan, Temple of Set), which fall apart when the leadership is removed, especially when their founding ideas decay beyond relevance, and they cease to represent any type of heresy or purpose. Being part of a group like CoS requires nothing more than a monetary payment, which seems a step into irrelevance. Hence the reason why, for example, there is no “official” membership of O9A. It seems at odds also with the idea of Satanism to cultivate a group of drooling and proselyting sycophants who cannot think for themselves; albeit the skill lies in the façade that is created by making them think that they do. But worse still are those whose “Satanism” is nothing more than paper thin inverted crosses, playful pentagrams and the worn arms of anti-christianity, humanism and dualism. Dead aeon relics also shall remain the forte of those that live in a dead aeon ethos.
Of course, Satanism is in essence about the individual journey, but when we understand that in order to best actualise this, and for it to have greater meaning, and that the individual is irrelevant, things take a slightly different turn. The goals that I see Satanism as having are transpersonal, and indeed I do not have personal regard for myself in this context – i.e. I see myself as a vessel and means, but not an end by any account. What I do can have meaning, but to limit it purely to myself is a waste of potential.
Naturally, this is not to cast the individual into irrelevance, albeit most of the “individuals” that I have met along the way have had such a rabble of philosophy and goals, that they themselves have not achieved anything. To set one’s own goals in the first place is something which most people are unable to do, let alone persevere with, but there are always exceptions, as there should be – those that are possessed of a Promethean/Faustian Fire, those that are willing to live their lives without regard, to live as a scythe of Falcifer… In this regard, ties to an Order are problematic, given that they can act as more of a hindrance to progression, but indeed, these individuals are very few and far between. I have had the fortune to encounter a few such people – possessed of an admirable resilience, a genuine creative and defiant fire and Will – and to their benefit, they did not place themselves in positions of authority or leadership, because there was no need to do so; by their very nature they attract people of similar minds and ethos, because those that need to be led and supported, who seek assurance and comfort, do not fit within that particular network.
Orders however should not be seen as a place for the weak, or a cradle for the needy. They are not support structures, nor are they places which give counselling guidance or to provide assistance in failures or short comings. If an individual undertakes a task or ordeal, they do so on their own admonition. If they fail, and are, for example given, subsequently investigated by police or other organisations, the Order stands apart, as it always does, and lets the individual face and accept any responsibility therefrom, there is no interest, no concern, no attachment, no counsel. This is just the same if one is working with a group on an activity, e.g. such as infiltrating a structure and working to bring it down from the inside. It is done because it has been deemed that doing so is useful and aids the Sinister Dialectic, but the participants are alone to complete what needs to be done. It is a similar situation if creating an action group which will challenge the status quo. There is no search for personal glory in these activities, especially as they need to be done via clandestine means. This does of course make things perilous and arduous, but this is also part of the definition of what Satanism IS. Part of this may be elaborated on in the possible “Satanism, Crime and the Black Mass” article for The Sinister Flame IV.
Ultimately, above all, Satanism seeks to create a new, higher, type of (true) individual; a genuine Elite, a new stage of evolution. Means and methods are dialectic, and may involve agitating for various, seemingly paradoxical, causes; albeit, as I have stated before, there are no paradoxes in the Sinister Dialectic…
And to quote at length:
"It is of fundamental importance - to evolution both individual and otherwise - that what is Dark, Sinister or Satanic is made real in a practical way, over and over again. That is, that what is dangerous, awesome, numinous, tragic, deadly, terrible, terrifying and beyond the power of ordinary mortals, laws or governments to control is made manifest. In effect, non-Initiates (and even Initiates) need constantly reminding that such things still exist; they need constantly to be brought "face-to-face", and touched, with what is, or appears to be, inexplicable, uncontrollable, powerful and "evil". They need reminding of their own mortality - of the unforeseen, inexplicable "powers of Fate", of the powerful force of "Nature".
If this means killing, wars, suffering, sacrifice, terror, disease. tragedy and disruption, then such things must be - for it is one of the duties of a Satanic Initiate to so presence the dark, and prepare the way for, or initiate, the change and evolution which always result from such things. Such things as these must be, and always will be, because the majority of people are or will remain, inert and sub-human unless changed. The majority is - and always will be until it evolves to become something else - raw material to be used, moulded, cut-away and shaped to create what must be. There is no such thing as an innocent person because everyone who exists is part of the whole, the change, the evolution, the presencing of life itself, which is beyond them, and their life only has meaning through the change, development and evolution of life. Their importance is what they can become, or what can be achieved through their death, their tragedy, their living - their importance does not lie in their individual happiness or their individual desires or whatever."
8. Could you give some examples of what "Magickal and practical aims" an order or occult organisation might look to achieve?
My answer to this question will be both broad and narrow, as there is sometimes information which it is unwise to disseminate in a “public forum” such as the internet, but see, for example “ONA Strategy and Tactics”, “Hysteron Proteron”, “The Practice of Evil: In Context” etc. Satanism does not seek any form of official recognition as it does not seek to become respectable or accessible to the majority. Even most that would profess to be, are simply failures or grossly deluded. One can fill oneself with as much externally acquired theory as one wishes, but without application, assimilation, experience, and practical application, it is worthless.
The Magickal and practical aims which are sought, and progressed, essentially are manifold, as one influences and enables the other to be undertaken.
I.e. one of the aims which is sought is to usher in a “New Aeon” (i.e. the Galactic Aeon), which requires the number of genuine Adepts to be forthwith increased. Obviously, the path to Adeptship is perilous and hard, and this, along the way, includes the Initiate participating in certain acts and activities along the way. This goes hand in hand with both Magick and the practical aims. The use of Magick is to increase certain presences in the causal plane, by creating a rent to the Acausal… As I have indicated elsewhere, it must be understood that the “New Aeon” will not occur within our causal lifetimes, but this also, is irrelevant.
An Initiate might, on their own, feel that the achievement of a practical step will aid the unfolding of the Sinister Dialectic, though it is important to add that they are not instructed on what an appropriate step might be – because there is no need to. This, ultimately, is what it means to be an Initiate.
Often, as with the Black Order of Pan-Europa, the “aims” are presented in a manner in which the intent is underscored therein – i.e. if we look at, for example given, the Articles of Faith of TBO:
- We believe in Uralten - the Original or Ancient One of the Germanics as representative of the creative/destructive force that permeates the cosmos.
- Our creed is therefore based on the laws of nature, as revealed by science.
- Feelings of oneness and attunement with nature and the cosmos as manifestations of the Uralten-Force are "good." That which weakens is “evil".
- Our morality is that which strengthens the individual is "good." That which weakens is "evil".
- We hold that nature, and therefore history, is cyclic, governed by cycles of life/death/renewal, and that these principles govern the rise and fall of civilizations.
- The cosmos operates on the basis of polarities, and that the interaction of these polarities causes evolution.
- Man need not be a passive spectator or victim of the 'gods' or 'Fate', but by understanding the laws of the cosmos can, through his will, be an active agent in the evolutionary process.
- Those attuned to the Uralten Force flowing through nature have the essence of the Force within, and are links in an evolutionary chain toward the Nizetzschean Over Man.
- Man's destiny is to play amongst the stars; the destiny of his evolution into the foreseeable future: Homo Galactica.
The above, when properly read, indeed contains a great amount of information, both exoterically and esoterically. The main indication is that it requires, and indeed demands, practical application. There are already enough theorists and book worms in the world, amongst, and over, the deluded, that have never stepped out into either the cold of night, or experienced anything remotely dangerous, or performed anything that is genuinely Evil… Once again, as above, there is no victory without sacrifice, and no sacrifice without bloodshed. War breeds and reveals character – in combat, there is nowhere to hide, and there are no gods to give you the guts… There is no birth without blood.
8.1) Specifically how would those "Magickal and practical aims" be achieved?
The answer to this will begin with a quote, which, with some synchronicity, was already culled:
The reality is that there are no easy, idealistic options. A genuine insight and understanding of aeonic matters means certain judgements have to be made: certain tactics have to be employed in order to achieve anything. Satanism is concerned with real, meaningful changes in the real world: it is not concerned with mystical or pseudo-mystical world-views and impractical idealisms. In a fundamental sense, Satanism is pragmatic – aeonically.
The present reality is as stated above – no amount of wishful thinking or idealism or sentiment will change this. One either aids aeonic change and thus contributes towards evolutionary change, or one does not.
The first thing which must be understood is that there are both long and short term aims. The present Western Aeon still has several hundred years to go, so when we talk “long term”, this means change which is effected to culminate in approx. 350-500 years. Both the short and long term aims however are designed to dis-stabilise the current distortion which is presented as “Western Civilisation” and its predominant ideas and follies, its disease and contagion, its illness of Spirit as it stands in its death throes, in its danse macabre enshrouded within the Winter, qv Spengler, of this age.
There are a variety of means and methods which one is able to employ in order to effect change. Some of them, to state the obvious, are regarded by society at large as being “illegal”, but Satanism, as it should be, has no concern with the inherent “legality” or “illegality” of certain acts – what matters is what they produce and what they achieve. For the initiate or neophyte, what matters also is the understanding that such activity provides, Aeonically, especially when undertaking things as an insight role. The perseverance which is demanded by an insight role in the first place, the pre-planning, the execution, the after effects, are on their own character building – they are not for the weak, the “hobbyist” nor the “dabbler”.
There are large degrees of what could be called “entryism” and subterfuge which can be involved at any stage, which can involve entering key organisations for the purpose of information gathering, or destabilising, and utilisation of their resources, or even gaining skills which can in turn aid the individual to help enact the Sinister Dialectic, so e.g., obtaining information about police tactics and responses, is useful, just as much as learning military tactics and drills are as well. It is useful to, for example also, work within certain organisations which hold great deals of information that cover entire nations, with special interest in those that provide, for example, social services. If one were able to, for example, influence policy change within said type of organisation, the effect and impact can be wide-spread – i.e. making it more difficult for people to obtain certain services or assistance, creating as a flow on effect suicide, murder, homelessness, illness within certain groups, and the eventual societal collapse that this can culminate in.
The increased reliance on the internet, or at least computer/electronic based things, both individually and for most countries provides a salient opportunity, albeit my personal interest is moreso towards EMP warfare, however impossible that may seem.
Drug dealing, agitating for extremist groups of both the Left and the Right, sometimes even simultaneously, and even minor actions to create chaos and disorder are also supported and encouraged. It may appear contradictory and paradoxical to support extremes of both the Left and Right, but this is a Realpolitik approach in action, as much as it is the Sinister Dialectic. Drug dealing, and manufacturing, obviously speak for themselves.
Additionally, the selection of Opfers can, and do, aid change when properly selected, albeit most do already, by their very character. There are no such things as “innocent people” (see quote from question 7), they are, and must be considered as, tools and material for a means to an end.
It must be understood, especially in the current political climate, that there is the propensity for some ideas, actions and aims, to be considered as possible “acts of terrorism”. In effect, anything that challenges the status quo, especially when emanating from the idea of a greater purpose is. The West itself has become so enthralled by the idea of the individual in decline that anything beyond the self meets with a lack of comprehension – be that a Japanese Kamikaze pilot during WWII, or an Islamic suicide bomber.
Ultimately, nothing is sacred.
9. Lets go back to Vánargandr for a bit. I am interested to know what technology, instruments and objects you use and have used to create your sound. Could you please give an insight into this?
An apology will be offered at the commencement of this question, in that it won’t really “reveal” anything “new” or “original”. The answers also, to me, are disinteresting. People, bands, projects, can all have the most amazing resources available to them through studio hardware, software, musical instruments, effects etc, but still create nothing of value, nor express anything remotely awe-inspiring or numinous. The sound, for example, of cracking and breaking bones, or a skull being ground by hand for making incense, can just be noise, or can be something else totally. The difference is the inspiration, the intent, the purpose, the Nexion and the vessel. The same is true of any instrument, or even voice.
The methodology which has been used by Vánargandr has changed and developed over the years, and the origin of some of these methods goes back even further.
Basically, between 1997 to 2002, various analogue methods were used. Everything was recorded to cassette, and where necessary mixed using some very “lo-fi” means. No effects units were used at this time. Keyboards were first used in 1999, and the ones employed between then and up to 2002 were very much of the “vintage” variety – certainly not by design, and a matter of just using what became available by fortune.
Around mid-2002 things started being recorded direct to computer. Initially, and for the first several years, via some pretty shitty means, creating ways to work around the limitations encountered. This is the period which is alluded to in Question 2, in that since this time, no musickal instruments have been used. While there are sometimes “normal” instruments employed during rehearsals, they are moreso utilised to achieve or augment a certain frame of mind and consciousness – they don’t find their place into any completed recording, perhaps with the exception of the odd feedback squeal here and there.
Effects units, pedals etc were not introduced until around 2006, with an especial appreciation for rack reverbs. Spending time to custom patches has proven greatly worthwhile, as has experimenting with pedal/rack placements in chains.
When material started being recorded direct to computer, this enabled various programmes and plug-ins to be used to craft the finished result. The processing on files differs a great deal – and can be minor things such as removing background noise and hiss, to almost absurd amounts where it bears no resemblance to the original. This ties in with the “management” of the recording sessions and the pre-planning and mapping involved. Things do appear chaotic and messy, and to an extent they are, but this is how the Acausal acts, ebbs and flows.
A number of things have been used during recordings, as indicated above; but beside that various mundane objects, such as sheet metal, knives, hammers, whips, ritual bells to name a few. Once again, as stated in question 3, neither midi software, nor stolen samples (including the generic “library” kind) are used. The latter, especially, is loathed with a vengeance.
10. I've listened to a good cross section of your material, with the latest being 'Tenebris IV'. Which seems to have developed itself into a nihilistic mediation soundtrack for an apocalyptic death ritual. It seems to have advanced itself to the point of sounding dynamic and seeming to sound if so there has been no human input in its creation. Was this intentional? Where do you intend to take it next?
The progression and dynamism of Vánargandr remains as a core element, sometimes profound, sometimes not. There is no particular “conscious design”, other than that which is reflective of our own Occult experiences and development. A large difference may be that there is no attention paid to what others are doing – we are not part of a “scene”, nor is there any particular “camaraderie” apart from a literal couple of individuals. We don’t listen to a significant amount of music anymore either – and haven’t done so for several years now, maybe an album or two a year, sometimes less.
The diachronic movement and development is considered a natural progression. Future recordings will further elaborate on what has been laid out on the releases of the past several years to a “natural conclusion” as this parallels the Ideals which lay our foundation. As has been stated in prior interviews, and elsewhere in this interview, the formula of relevance is Incipit VITRIOL…
11. Thanks for your time and hopefully enlightening readers on the subject matter we've discussed. Is there anything you would like to add in closing?
Again, as has been stated in prior interviews, there is nothing new said herein, period. Thank you for persevering with us in getting this completed.
The only way to contact Vánargandr is – firstname.lastname@example.org
Please note in advance that there is reply guaranteed.